26: The Side of Working for Free No One Talks About
Listen to this episode of Mind Over Blog on the player above, or find it on Apple, Spotify, Google Podcasts.
I have a secret. I don’t think it’s wrong to work for free, and today my friend, fellow entrepreneur, and business coach Jennifer Hulley and I dive into why it’s actually okay to work for free.
This is not a popular opinion. Or rather, this is not an opinion that is talked about or shared as much, but I promise it is just as powerful.
You see, creating a business that is authentic to you means you get to decide if working for free is right for you, not someone else and their opinion. Opening up to an abundant mindset deeply trusting that money flows to you always and eliminating fear when it comes to making an informed decision about working for free.
Carefully choosing what you consume for your mindset is important, and strict rules like never work for free, are not expansive, they are restricting and shaming. If this has you curious to hear more, tune in to hear more about how working for free might be the right move for you, and what to think about as you make the decision.
Listen to episode 25, part one with Jennifer Hulley here!
Transcript of the episode
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Jennifer Hulley 0:00
You’re so insecure with that, that you think another person doing whatever they do for free is going to take potential work away from you and like you gotta like reevaluate what you’re doing as a business.
Loren Runion 0:11
Welcome to mind over blog podcast. I’m your host, Loren Runion, a mindset obsessed food blogger and food photographer, you were listening to the only podcast designed to help food bloggers uplevel their mindset to manifest their biggest blogging goals. Welcome to mind over blog. Let’s get started. Welcome back part two with Jennifer Hulley, you guys, I hope you love part one. If you missed it, go back. Listen to this one. First. Cause its short, tune into this head back to the first one. And check her out. Because Jennifer Hulley is an amazing brand coach who works with entrepreneurs, helping them build a authentic brand strategy. So they can connect with the right people communicate their story, and convert with ease. She has an expertise in teaching, and she literally has like everything you need to help you get aligned with your strategy for your business. So today, we are busting out some good information. And I just want to say I am posting this episode in hopes to open and expand everyone’s perspective on working for free. And I’m not someone who don’t like to, I believe everyone can believe whatever the EFF they want to believe. I’m not here to convince anyone that I’m right. And I’m not here to convince anyone that they’re wrong. I am here to make sure everyone feels empowered with the decisions they make with our business. And I am here to make sure that you feel good. And you’re making decisions based on how you feel not what anyone else makes you feel. So today, we’re going to be bringing a little bit of a different perspective on the whole deal of working for free. And I we’re going to be talking about why it’s okay to work for free. And when it’s okay to work for free. And how you know if it’s right for you. And only you. I hope you enjoy this conversation. Don’t forget to tag us in on Instagram. I want to know did this open your eyes did this open you were like oh, maybe I am like not creating my own rules in my business. Maybe I am having a little bit of a lack of mindset here. Let me know if it you know how it resonated with you. If you’ve ever been thinking these things and just didn’t understand why it’s not been talking about. And then if you love it, or any other episode you’ve ever listened to, and you’ve not yet left a review, you don’t understand how much it means to me when you do that. It’s everything like literally it’s life. I don’t think I’ve ever used that word that term before but it is when it comes to podcasting. And also, we’re getting really close to wrapping up season one. And I’m going to be wrapping up season one and then launching Season Two pretty quickly. And there’s going to be some changes. So I hope you are excited because I am excited. I am here I’m on a mission to help not just food bloggers, I am on a mission to help all female entrepreneurs to freakin own it and uplevel their life and uplevel their mindset and stop playing small and stop doubting yourself and stop having the stress. I’m here to help you align and expand who you are as a person and become the person you are supposed to be become the person you know you are. But you’re so damn scared. That was a tangent. So let’s get started. Hi, Jennifer. Welcome back to the show.
Jennifer Hulley 3:57
Thanks for having me.
Loren Runion 3:59
Yeah. For anyone listening we I’m creating you know, I got Jennifer for an hour and I’m because I appreciate her message so much. I cut it in half and we were talking about , two different subjects. So to hear all about Jennifer’s story, make sure you go back and listen to the first parts. And I’m diving into a hot topic friends we are talking about because I appreciate Jennifer’s opinion on this so much and I don’t agree with a lot of the opinions I hear about this. We’re going to talk about working for free. Because Lord it’s a Hot Topic in the food blogging industry.
Jennifer Hulley 4:31
It isn’t photography any kind of creator space.
Loren Runion 4:34
I was gonna say that was
Jennifer Hulley 4:36
people getting taken advantage of and yeah, it’s Yeah, it’s spicy
Loren Runion 4:40
spicy. My kids say that. This is spicy and it’s not even spicy. So Alright, let’s just go like I’m gonna I’m gonna just share my feelings and for anyone who doesn’t like it, you know what, I’m sorry, but it needs to be said then the other side needs to be said about working for free. Let’s just start with like, let’s talk about one time, it’s a good idea to talk about, like working for free.
Jennifer Hulley 5:07
When you whenever you decided Absolutely, I 100% agree 100% agree.
Jennifer Hulley 5:13
When, When is it okay to write work for free when you give yourself permission to and you’re okay with it. Like when you’re consenting to that experience, that’s when it’s okay, you will give the Yes.
Loren Runion 5:24
I agree with 100%. And so I find it about it.
Jennifer Hulley 5:30
I know I find it interesting that we think it’s okay to tell people what to do and how to run their business and how they should view money and what they should expect. And it’s like, people get caught up in this guilt or like, Oh, my God, I I I low balled, or I didn’t take enough money, all right. It’s like whatever. Like, if you were, I mean, there’s, there’s two sides to it, if you took work for free, and you were just sort of bending over backwards and not articulating your, you know, your authority or whatever standing up for yourself, that’s different. But if like you critically evaluated the situation, you’re like, you know what, I actually would like to do this people work there are like charity exists all over the place. People do like lawyers do pro bono work. You know what I mean? There is always an opportunity to donate your services, if you decide that that’s a venture or an entity that you want to give your energy and time to.
Loren Runion 6:19
I 100% agree. Now, let me say this, I don’t work for free. I don’t do it, because it doesn’t feel good to me. But what doesn’t also doesn’t feel good to me is hearing people tell people not to work for free.
Jennifer Hulley 6:28
Yeah, exactly. I don’t work for free, either. Um, I have I have, I think I took like one when I was maybe one or two photography, because they were exchanged. Like, you know,
Jennifer Hulley 6:42
But like, I didn’t ever feel bad about the times that I worked for free. Because I have like, you ask yourself some questions, right? Like, do I love this product? This brand this business? Like, is this something that I’m like super jazzed up about, like? And is this an opportunity that’s working in my favor? I think the problem is like people like when I say is this an opportunity? Like I look at it for a product, let’s say it was like a product cuz that’s where they often come like, Hey, can you collab with us, and we’ll send you this product. And maybe it’s a product that you can like, never get your hands on, and you’re like, Oh, my God, I would actually love to do that. And I would love to photograph it. And I’m already scheduled to do some portfolio building shoot exercises, and they’re gonna send me some really wicked pans, which would just make your shoot that much better. Because it’s gonna be beautiful. Why not? Why not? You know what I mean? Like, if you’re going to already create it, why not share? But then like, if some random, let’s go back, say a toaster company comes to you, and you’re like, I don’t like I don’t Who are you? I don’t care. I don’t need a toaster. No, you don’t need to take that opportunity. But like, it’s like, do I love this product is brand new, this business is at a really good opportunity for me to like, maybe get something that I might not otherwise be able to get? Can I fit it into my schedule? Like if you’re strapped for time, squeezing in a free project pro sorry, project is probably not a great idea. But this is where you have the authority to ask these questions and to reflect on me like, am I gonna do it? Yes or No, you decide,
Loren Runion 8:04
Maybe you really want the free product? You know, that’s completely okay.
Jennifer Hulley 8:08
That’s totally fine.
Loren Runion 8:09
You like I’d like to make this week yeah, I’ll take some free sweet potatoes, you know,
Jennifer Hulley 8:15
Like, that’s really mean nobody, nobody gets to tell you what you will and will not do, that’s you that does that you get to set your its boundaries, right? Like it’s a boundary thing. And you establish your own boundaries as an individual, not somebody else telling you what your boundary is. So you can’t have an expert being like your boundaries, this and you’re never taking work like this and never do that. It’s like, allowing that person to tell you how you’re going to think and feel is you like neglecting your own boundaries to begin with. Right? Like, it’s just it’s such a weird space.
Loren Runion 8:43
And it’s, there’s a lot of people, I would say, 90% of the people that you’re talking about, you don’t hear people saying the other side of it. And one of the things that I feel like they say in to support the argument of not working for free is that it creates an industry standard of creatives having to give away their work. My opinion on that, and I just want to hear yours, but my opinion on that is nobody’s making the creatives give their work away for free. The company has their own damn right to figure out if they want to get a crappy product, you know, maybe it’s not gonna be a crappy product. But I’m going to say that most of the people that aren’t, I guess I shouldn’t have said it that way. But a lot of the times when you’re working for free, it’s somebody who’s starting out and the work isn’t going to be the same as somebody has been doing for 10 years. So that’s what I mean who shouldn’t have said crappy but you know,
Jennifer Hulley 9:36
do you mean the person making the photos or the content just starting out that’s
Loren Runion 9:40
quality content that you’re getting from someone who always gives away free work is probably not the same as someone who only gives it away pro bono like a lawyer you know, like a lawyer doesn’t give away all their work for free. And the company has the right to a decide that but because someone created that industry standard air quote doesn’t mean you’re not Get your work, and the money that you demand. Like, I feel like it creates,
Jennifer Hulley 10:04
it’s you’re afraid, like you’re afraid that you’ll you won’t get paid because other people are fucking it up. It’s hopefully swearing as such. Okay, but that’s what I mean, it’s like, it’s basically you don’t care if somebody works for free really doesn’t like What do you care? It’s, you’re afraid of how it’s going to affect you. Right? And like spoiler alert, there will always be somebody that works for free.
Loren Runion 10:28
Working for free if you charge $1,000 and someone else searches 500.
Jennifer Hulley 10:32
Yeah, it’s always going to be there regardless, because there will always be someone that’s like, not even in the business sphere yet. That’s just like, Wayfinding you know, and like dipping their toe in something to be like, Oh, am I interested in this? Yeah, though, like, it’s like, when I was learning portraits, I would always bring my friends with me. But like, Can I take pictures of your kids for free, I’m learning something, right. And so there will always be people that are engaged in that. And if you are so insecure with the value that you provide, and the deliverable and the experience that you’re giving for your clients, or customers, if you’re so insecure with that, that you think another person doing whatever they do for free is going to take potential work away from you. And like you got to like, reevaluate what you’re doing as a business
Loren Runion 11:13
and reevaluate your right? Because mindset around money is that if you promote having this abundant mindset, and you and money always flows to you, no matter what, because you’ve created that mindset, and that, you know, I know, you’re a little we’re on a little bit of a different perspective of the manifestation like woowoo, and scientific but if you’re magnetize, to the money that’s flowing into your life, it doesn’t matter if someone else is creating work for free, because you your money comes from, in my belief, your money comes from God or the universe, it doesn’t come from that brand. So it doesn’t matter what that other person doing. And it’s because it doesn’t come from them. It doesn’t come from an external person, in my opinion.
Jennifer Hulley 11:55
Yeah, it’s exactly like if you were painting your house and your neighbor, like you’re painting the room inside your house, doesn’t matter what color your neighbor’s painting inside of their house, no, you’re just gonna paint your house, like it’s, you got to sort of stay within your own space, right? Like you’re saying, and not worry so much about what other people are doing. But it’s like, if you let yourself get in that mindset, where you’re like obsessed with the other person’s doing you do you you block off your your channels in your head to being able to like whatever you want to call it receiving, you know, downloads from the universe or receiving inspiration or whatever. It’s just, cognitively, you’re shutting off certain pathways in your brain that you’re not open to receiving ideas or thoughts or things, you know, and I just like, the other thing, like to go back to the boundaries thing to say, okay, you establish the boundaries, you decide what type of work even if you do you take free work, you still have that space to establish boundaries within it, like you say, just because you’re doing work for free doesn’t mean you’re giving away all your rights and being like, here’s my everything, you can still put in parameters that you’re comfortable with, like say I expect to be credited. You can only use this on Instagram, or you can only use it in your email for this specific thing. Like you make it work for yourself, right? You don’t give away everything, you hold that confidence space. And you say like, this is what I’m willing to give. And this is these are my expectations, and does it work?
Loren Runion 13:15
If you use the word confidence, that’s what I was gonna say some people need this. I think brand work is really intimidating for people. Anyone starting out in the space, you can’t tell me you just start a new weren’t intimidated by working with a brand or pitching a brand or whatever. That might be the stepping stone someone needs to get their feet wet and feel comfortable working with a brand or learn there’s the only way you’re going to learn if you lowball your prices, because it felt good to you. And then you didn’t you’re like, well, that feels like shit. You’re not going to do it again. The next time. You know, like, I’m still doing that in my business. They still pitching is still something that you’re you learn in negotiating, working for free. Okay, fine. I’m going to try it. I’m going to try working for free and Well, that didn’t feel very good. So maybe next time I’m not going to do that, you know, like you don’t know until you try. So I don’t want anyone to ever feel like they shouldn’t do it because people say they shouldn’t. The end.
Jennifer Hulley 14:05
Yeah, that’s following somebody else’s rules. It’s like, Oh, I’m not allowed to do this. Because this person says it’s bad, right? It’s like when was the Pantone comes out with the color of the year. And they’re like, this is the color that everybody’s gonna love. And you’re like, I don’t love it. You don’t have to love it. Just because Pantone is telling you is their new color of the year. Like it’s, you can’t put other people’s expectations and rules into your own mental space and expectations for your life right and expectations for your business. I think like when you get this opportunity for free work, right or exchanging of work, and it’s not even free. It’s just we think of like, what is money? It’s energy, right? It’s an exchange of energy for it’s an exchange of energy for something of value or whatever, right? So when you’re working for free, you’re just changing what the exchange is. You’re not exchanging finances for it, you’re going to exchange something else. So it’s not It’s not free.
Jennifer Hulley 15:01
Do you know what I was saying? Like there’s just shifting and changing in money is energy.
Loren Runion 15:07
Because exactly what you said we’re, you’re exchanging one energy for the other energy. And the only reason money means anything is because the entire world collective said, this means something, if everyone decided this dollar meant nothing, then again, it means nothing. So I completely agree with that, you’ve just decided you’re changing the medium of the energy that’s exchanged. And it could be, here’s my energy, I’m changing the exchange, here’s my change, I’m exchanging this for confidence, I want confidence out of this gig for my work that I do for my pictures, or I want, you know, just to learn how email back and forth with a brand, you know, it’s you can learn so much. By not saying like, No, I’m never gonna not work for free.
Jennifer Hulley 15:50
Absolutely. And it’s like, like, I think it’s a swap, right? Like, you know, when you’re a kid, and you would swap things you’d be like, I’ll give you three stickers, if you give me that ball, right? Like kids would, playground swaps is the same thing. You’re just saying like, Well, okay, you don’t have stickers to give me but instead, I’ll take this for that, right? Like, it’s just the shifting nature of the exchange of what you’re willing to give and what you expect to get in the dynamic that you’re entering with the person or the brand. I think where people get into trouble is never stopping the cycle. So it’s like, you can’t continue to do work. If you want, if you want to build it as a business, maybe you don’t want to build it as a business, maybe you just want this to be a hobby totally fine, then you can do work for free air quotes, or you can do it for exchange of something else. But if your goal is to create a profitable finite, like a financially profitable business, continuing to exchange work, without monetary value will not get you there. So it’s like putting in those boundaries and expectations for yourself that you will move yourself on a trajectory towards asking for prices or asking for sorry, asking for dollars and increasing your prices as this continuum, right. But it’s also like, again, everything is like gray zone, nothing is black and white. So it’s looking at the opportunity. So brand comes down and says like, Hey, we want we want to give you this product, whatever, take some photos, or do a write up about it. Having a smaller independent company do that to you versus like a multinational chain being like, let me give you our juice that’s in every single store in North America, that’s a bit different, right? Because it’s like they have the finances, and they have the fiscal infrastructure in their business to be giving something so I feel like there’s that you can’t apply a rule to everybody. Do you know what I’m saying? Yeah,
Loren Runion 17:35
yeah. And also thinking about the reason why you may be saying yes to the free work. Meaning, are you saying yes, because you feel like you’re not good enough? You know, exploring if there’s some kind of limiting belief that’s holding you back from requesting money. It’s never, you should never make a decision out of fear. And if you were fearful to say, like, No, I want money, because you feel like you’re not good enough, then the, then you should be exploring that not whether or not you should be working for free. It’s why do I feel like I don’t deserve the money? Yeah, why do I feel like I’m not 100%? Yeah,
Jennifer Hulley 18:13
yeah. 100%. Like, if you’re taking, if you’re accepting free work, why? Go back to the why, why are you okay, with this scenario? Is it because it is an opportunity that is really in alignment? And you’re happy to do it? Or is it because I’m afraid that I’m not good enough to ask for money, or I’m not confident to actually send my prices over? Because those are very different things. And I think the difference in it is like an energetic one. One is empowering. And one is like victim, yes, right? Right, one worse. One is an empowering decision. We’re like, no, this, these are my boundaries, these are my expectations. And I am like, competently accepting this opportunity for free, because of x, y, z, whereas the other ones are rooted in more of like I said, like a victim, not victim, but like a lack of power, right? And a lack of confidence and just being like, I don’t have I don’t have the skills or this or that, or I’m not able to ask for what I’m worth, like, those are very different energetic standpoint. So I think it’s like, giving yourself the opportunity to tune in and be like, where am i right now? Like, where is this? I’m considering this up this opportunity. Why?
Loren Runion 19:18
Yeah, I love that. And I guess we should end there because I didn’t allow for enough time for us for our conversation.
Jennifer Hulley 19:26
So I feel like I could talk for an hour about about energy and money and working for free in exchange. We could you could probably talk about our lives. There’s a lot. I agree, but I appreciate your opinion. And I appreciate maybe having someone stand up on the same side of me for you know, not working for free. That’s not always wrong.
Jennifer Hulley 19:48
I think it’s hard I think like, no, it’s not and I think I remember you and I were talking before this about I posted a real about it. And when I made the real I was like nervous to post that cuz I was like, Oh my god, it’s like people are gonna start yelling at me. Because there’s almost this like you’re if you’re not with us, you’re against us mentality that’s there right now, like, because people love to like fight for a cause, right? This is a very unifying experience when you collectively band together against some not evil, but some outside force that is unjust, right? So when you stand up and say, like, Hey, you know what, it may not always be bad. It’s kind of like putting out a different perspective that people might not be open to hearing. But I think it’s a perspective that people really need to give space in their brain to consider. Yeah,
Loren Runion 20:33
I agree. And because so much of that, I forget what Casey Markee, like a big audit guy, SEO, audit guy and herd mentality, that’s what he calls it within the blogging space mentality, there’s so much herd mentality in the blogging space, if the big blogger says don’t work for free, then that means I’m not going to work for free, and then I’m gonna, you know, just create, it’s because the big bloggers successful and they think if I don’t do what the successful person does, I’m not going to be successful too,
Jennifer Hulley 20:58
right? Like, we run that assurance and we want certainty, we want to know that they’re our actions are going to lead us to success. But like is that big bloggers success the same as yours. Like is what they’re working towards what you’re working towards. So it really doesn’t matter. Like Don’t worry about what other people are doing so much agree. And I think people need to talk about this more, because what I see happening that I hate is the guilt and the self shaming that people engage in when they take I’m using air quotes take free work, right? And they feel bad like they failed themselves and they can beat themselves up about it. And that’s because the only thing we’re talking about right now is why you shouldn’t work for free but it’s like we need to talk a little bit more like why it’s okay and why you might want to take a free opportunity so that you can be kinder to yourself.
Loren Runion 21:45
I agree and you always have really awesome information. You talk about it every once in a while about working for free so where can people can find you on Instagram to follow along on your reels and stuff like
Jennifer Hulley 21:56
that? Yes on Instagram my account is @jenniferhulley and my websites www dot jennifer hulley dot com but most of my quick content like like that is up on my Instagram reels and stories.
Loren Runion 22:09
Thank you, Jennifer.
Jennifer Hulley 22:10
Thank you. Bye.
Loren Runion 22:12
Thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of Mind Over blog podcast. Don’t forget if you love this episode to leave us a review, and then tag me on Instagram at mind over a blog. Share it in your stories. I’d love to know what you like the most about this episode. Until the next time. Have a great day.
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How? email Jenn at contact@jenniferhulley.com with the subject “mind over blog 25” to find out more.
